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Post by Joseph Barros on May 29, 2010 9:02:15 GMT -8
The longsword vs. shortsword is a good analogy for DnD because that system has few exploitable weaknesses. It's balanced well enough that not trying to make the most powerful character you can might cause you problems. MnM however is not DnD. It has a great multituded of exploitable weaknesses in character building. It is not, nor probably ever can be, a truly balanced game. Trying to "prepare" for the harder stuff is exactly what I'm talking about. Don't do that. I'm not saying making your character suck is a good idea either, but don't worry about the hard stuff. I am not going to present a situation in front of you guys that you won't be able to overcome. And no matter how hard you power game I can always come up with situations that you can't. In fact the latter will happen often because if I get the feeling your character is feeling invincible or untouchable because of how well you worked the rules during character creation I'm going to have to figure out how to take that character's ego down a few notches so that I can then begin to create situations where you feel a sense of suspense. You'll see what I mean in the next few sessions. I consider power gaming a character who can by their very nature sucks all challenge and suspense from the game. If you have a character who is only going to feel threatened in a very few specific situations, then that is a heavily power gamed character. I don't want any Hulks or Supermen. If you have a character that can easily dispatch someone many power levels higher than you with just a normal attack roll... that is also power gaming. The gadgets power is fine because unless you have pre-cognition (and no you do not) you can't be ready for every eventuality. Plus you're limited by what you can carry on your person, and no all your gadgets will not be PL 10 in a pen. You'll have to point out the jury rigging rules for me, but you are not going to have a character who on round one analyzes the situation, zips across the world for supplies, makes a gadget that is amazingly useful for that specific situation and then is back in action to use it. When you choose to use your speed and gadget powers in unison like that you are going to lose 3-5 rounds of combat. More depending on what exactly you are trying to accomplish.
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Post by frobones on May 29, 2010 10:13:26 GMT -8
JURY-RIGGING DEVICES An inventor can choose to spend a hero point to jury-rig a device; ideal for when a particular device is needed right now. When jury-rigging a device, skip the design check and reduce the time of the construction check to one round per power point of the device’s cost, but increases the DC of the Craft check by +5. The inventor makes the Craft check and, if successful, has use of the device for one encounter before it burns out, falls apart, blows up, or otherwise fails. You can’t take 10 or take 20 when jury-rigging an invention, nor can you speed up the process any further by taking a skill check penalty. You can jury-rig an invention again by spending another hero point.
So the amount of rounds it takes for me to make the device depends on how many points the power has.
GADGETS You can produce a wide variety of Devices (see the Device power) essentially at will. As with Device, Gadgets gives you 5 power points per rank to create these items, and you can split your points among multiple Devices, if desired. Changing your Gadget points around is a standard action and lasts until you choose to change them again. (The Gadgets power has a continuous duration, although the powers of the individual Devices themselves may have different durations.) Your gadgets function in all ways like normal Devices (see Devices & Equipment, M&M, page 128, for details). The cost of Gadgets depends on how easily they can be taken away from you. If your gadgets are easy to lose (can be taken away with a successful disarm) then the power is 6 points per rank. If they’re hard to lose (can only be taken away from you while you’re helpless), the power is 7 points per rank. If you cannot lose your gadgets at all (they are an integral part of you in some way), then you actually have a different sort of Variable structure power, pos- sibly Shapeshift (allowing you to transform parts of yourself into different technological devices, for example).
The Gadgets power let's me be "prepared" for anything. It allows me to reassign PP from a limited pool to any other power by using a standard action. So let's say it starts out as a freeze ray (Blast 5 - 10pp). Now lets say I want to change the Gadget to a Force Field/Shield combo to protect myself. I would take a standard action to rearrange the 10pp of the Blast 5 into Force Field 5 (5pp) and Shield 5 (5pp). In this process I lose the offensive power of the freeze ray, but gain some survivability through the Force Field/Shield combo. This power is expensive as it takes 6-7 real PP for 5 Gadgets PP to work around with. And this rearranging of PP would be me RPing that I build Gadgets on the spot really fast.
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Post by Joseph Barros on Jun 1, 2010 11:17:13 GMT -8
It's exactly these kind of variable powers that I see player after player warn me about. The fact that RAW this power lets you be "prepared" for anything is a prime example of a power that is going to require some self restraint. Being "expensive" doesn't necessarily make up for it. Price is irrelevant if you have a power that effectively lets you do anything you want whenever you want.
In order to use this power I want to see some real complications/drawbacks. And no loophole "doesn't work on gold" crap. Furthermore, as with all variable powers, you will not be allowed to use the alternate power feat in conjunction with Gadgets; it makes the power point price meaningless.
I'd also want a very well-explained description of where these gadgets come from. "The rules say I can" is not acceptable. Your character cannot just "poof" materials for sci-fi gadgets out of nowhere. The only characters in comics that can use the gadget power exactly as it's written without drawback are pretty much the cosmic heavy weights. The power does not "RP" anything as you suggest. I see absolutely no explanation in the description of the power that "RP's" how you can turn a freeze ray into a force field projector in 3 seconds. Forge couldn't pull that off, so neither can you. In other words... the fewer drawbacks you want for this the better REAL rp you better come up with. Nno insta-swiss army knife characters. If your character is ready for every possible situation all by his lonesome... power gamed. I don't want anybody with a character who can walk around completely fearless.
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Post by frobones on Jun 1, 2010 12:08:29 GMT -8
I'll just scratch the whole making gadgets idea and go all super-speed then, or even go another super hero route entirely.
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Post by reiphil on Jun 1, 2010 19:16:10 GMT -8
I can almost imagine a dr. who esque Sonic Screw Driver...
Nullifies all electronic equipment, disables mechanical/electrical locks, welds, automatically hacks any electronic/mechanical equipment, tracks electronic equipment, amplifies electronic/mechanical equipment.... All at a 10-15 foot range.
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Post by frobones on Jun 1, 2010 21:05:01 GMT -8
I think I might explore illusions next. I had fun occupying the shapeshifter the other day, maybe I could make a hero that does that with illusions/telepathy... or maybe with light control.
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Post by Joseph Barros on Jun 2, 2010 6:54:53 GMT -8
Actually the sonic screw driver wouldn't be terrible if that's your only power. Very strong ability that can do a lot. Can't stop a charging Juggernaut, but that's why you have a team; so that one person doesn't need to do everything.
I wouldn't mind the gadget super speed idea if you just limited yourself in encounters to what you already brought with you like Mister Fantastic. Mister Fantastic's ability to make inventions at crucial points in time is legendary. For the most part he is prepared for a lot, but he doesn't always have what he wants/needs at all times and needs his teammates to help buy time. He was able to singlehandedly stave off Galactus! However, part of what made that story suspenseful was that time was ticking. That and many other stories would have been much much more shorter and anti-climactic if he was able to just insta build what he needed in a moment. Such is the kind of play I want to avoid.
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Post by Joseph Barros on Jun 2, 2010 6:57:51 GMT -8
And FYI if you are modeling characters after Anime characters (i.e. one piece, Naruto, etc.) you might want to look elsewhere for inspiration. As badass as a lot of anime is, most of those supers are intentionally over the top. That works just fine when everyone lives in a cartoon violence world where everyone is over the top, but it's a very poor fit for this kind of game without including the mecha and manga sourcebook... which I am not going to do.
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Post by frobones on Jun 2, 2010 7:48:00 GMT -8
Well, the whole idea was to use my super speed to rearrange the parts of the gadget I already had into something else, and possible picking up random parts from around the "immediate area". But as you said, "stealing" things from my vicinity wasn't very heroic and you don't see my RP viability explaining the gadgets power. I'd rather come up with another hero concept that you accept and that I won't have to butcher.
I guess having 1 or 2 devices on my person could work, but it really defeats the design of the character I was trying to make. And if 10 variable points is enough to change the tide of battle, I guess I need to lower my bar. That's barely enough to get anything to PL 5, and we're in a PL 10 campaign. I understand he would be extremely versatile, but the strength of "swiss-army-knife" powers would be sub-par compared to everyone else. But I guess being a Jack-of-all-Trades will make me too powerful.
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Post by Joseph Barros on Jun 4, 2010 7:27:32 GMT -8
You could have more than one or two devices. You just cant effectively have unlimited... because that's where you were going with it. I don't mind picking up random parts from the immediate area, but if you need a sonic destabilizer and your immediate area is an elementary school surely you can see how it is very difficult to believe you'll be able to find the correct parts. And as far as re-arranging parts, dude you know something about technology. You can't turn a copy machine into a slushee maker using only the parts that make up the copy machine. Not because you aren't smart enough, but because it's just not physically possible, unless you have the power to "poof" parts into existence. (also, I didn't impose any restrictions on power points spent, so I'm not sure where the PL 5 is coming from. If you take a full 10 ranks that gives you 50 PP to spend on devices which you can rearrange with a standard action. 50 PP can take A LOT of powers to PL 10.)
This is kind of why I brought up the anime reference. A lot of anime is very cartoonish; It is not unreasonable for someone to just move their hands really fast in a dust cloud and voila! Sandwhich! Or run all across the world in a split second for the parts to make a death ray which they then create by moving their hands really fast in a dust cloud and voila! Death ray! It's just much too silly for the kind of game I want to run.
I like anime. It's a lot of fun and there is some very good writing, but anime and most mainstream comic books are two very different genres. Vegeta is one of my favorite fictional characters in any medium. Vegeta at best would be an extremely awkward fit into the world of Heroes. A very smart man once told me "Just because The Godfather is awesome, and giant robots are awesome, doesn't mean that putting them together would be awesome, even if the robots spoke with New York accents and wore vintage suits."
Now Freedom City does not attempt to recreate the same sense of "what if" realism that Heroes did, but it will still be a lot closer to Heroes than anything seen in Naruto as far as character design is concerned.
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Post by frobones on Jun 4, 2010 11:20:24 GMT -8
(also, I didn't impose any restrictions on power points spent, so I'm not sure where the PL 5 is coming from. If you take a full 10 ranks that gives you 50 PP to spend on devices which you can rearrange with a standard action. 50 PP can take A LOT of powers to PL 10.) The point of taking very few ranks in Gadget was so I couldn't do something like that. This is kind of why I brought up the anime reference. A lot of anime is very cartoonish; It is not unreasonable for someone to just move their hands really fast in a dust cloud and voila! Sandwhich! Or run all across the world in a split second for the parts to make a death ray which they then create by moving their hands really fast in a dust cloud and voila! Death ray! It's just much too silly for the kind of game I want to run. This concern here completely trumps the idea of the hero concept I was trying to make, and they are legitimate concerns. So I think I might drop this hero concept, I already have another in mind anyways. New idea: Multi-armed ninja/sorcerer where each hand can cast a different element due to a mystical inscription on each of them. The RP fun will be producing different hand signs with different elements that the hands can control to produce various results. I was also thinking of "arm signs" as he would have so many, I would imagine him doing a series of different arm poses to produce various spells/jutsu. The concept is Spiral (X-men) + Generic Fantasy Ninja Jutsu. Currently, there's no goal of a specific power in mind beside Additional Limbs" and there will be something very similar to Magic array, "Jutsu" Power, that should be approved by you first. I'll probably start off with magical abilities that Spiral can do, and branch off or modify from there. On that note, think we can get a sub-forum to pitch character designs or would you just rather have them in the main forums?
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Post by narutoanbu on Jul 27, 2010 21:02:13 GMT -8
All damage is auto non-kill but but but but what if i hold there head underwater? I mean Not my fault I thought they had gills >.>
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Post by The Keeper on Jul 30, 2010 18:02:36 GMT -8
Joseph,
I'll have to bow out of M&M despite all the fun and craziness we've had. Thanks for letting me play.
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Post by narutoanbu on Jul 30, 2010 23:40:01 GMT -8
Whos the keeper? asking just cause i wanna know who we are loseing.
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Post by The Keeper on Jul 31, 2010 1:30:26 GMT -8
Whos the keeper? asking just cause i wanna know who we are loseing. JP = Toshi
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