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Post by redbstrd on Aug 21, 2010 23:31:44 GMT -8
In general only certain powers are capped at the Power Level of 10, those that provoke a save (with a few other exceptions).
- Powers such as movement powers or elongation that don't have a save aren't subject to PL caps. - Powers that do have a save (Toughness, Fort, Reflex, or Will) are capped at PL (in this case, 10 ranks) *unless* the character has a trade off. An energy controller might have +8 attack and 12 ranks of damage, but they aren't breaking the 10 average for the PL. Note: The same applies for powers that affect Defense and Toughness. - Powers that are area attacks or Perception range (things that don't require an attack roll) don't qualify for trade offs, so they are capped at the PL.
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Post by frobones on Aug 21, 2010 23:40:23 GMT -8
hey wats the power rank cap per power level? I thought It was the power level rank but it seems that im wrong. and cant seem to find it in the core rules. anybody know off the top of there head? Power rank is limited by the Power Level only by correlation. PL does not directly limit power rank. What the PL does limit is Attack, Defense, Save DC, Toughness, Fort/Ref/Will saves, Abilities, and Skill bonuses. There is a nifty little table on pg. 25 that shows the max values attainable based on PL. Now, if a power causes you to exceed these limits, your build is illegal. So, the power level does indirectly limit ranks in powers... not directly. Powers that have nothing to do with the things listed on the table on pg. 25 have no limit on their rank. Powers that DO improve the things listed on pg. 25 are indirectly limited by PL. P.S. Some powers in their description straight up say they are limited to the PL, so watch out for those.
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Post by redbstrd on Aug 22, 2010 0:00:21 GMT -8
So I took a gander at the DC Adventures Book to get a feel for the 3e rules coming up. It does seem to simplify things. They've added a few abilities. In addition to Strength, Dexterity, etc there is also Awareness, Agility and Fighting. As for powers, they provide only the very core effects. This is nice cause its less to deal with mechanically and promotes creativity in players to combine these very basic core effects to create some unique and nifty powers. One change I think we should factor in immediately is their change to failed toughness saves. As Joseph experienced today through Capricorn, it's very easy to get stunned locked in the game. In 3e, on the fail of 5 or more, they change the stunned condition to a dazed condition (standard or move action on that turn). This will prevent the heartache of being stun locked that can easily happen and seems like a feasible house rule we can use in our 2e game right now. I say lets jump into DC Adventures ruleset when we transfer from Paragons, it's practically a preview of 3e rules that we plan to transition to anyways. The ability scores in 3e are actually slightly different: Strength is exactly the same. Stamina is Constitution but renamed. Intellect is Intelligence but renamed. Awareness is Wisdom but renamed. Dexterity is mostly the same but adds the modifier to ranged attacks. It doesn't affect Reflex saves because they took out Reflex saves. It does not affect initiative. Fighting gives bonuses to attack rolls on close (melee) attacks. It also gives bonuses to Parry (Defense for close attacks). Agility gives bonuses to initiative and Dodge (Defense for ranged attacks). The way that Agility, Dexterity, and Fighting replace Base Attack Bonus and Defense will take some getting used to. They did condense the skill list into broader skills (Deception replaces Bluff and Disguise, while Athletics replaces Climbing and Swimming), but they also doubled the cost of skills. Languages are no longer skills, they are an Advantage (Benefit). Rank 1 (1 foreign language), rank 2 (2 languages), 3 ranks (4 languages), 4 ranks (8 languages), etc. That will be an easy transition but it seems like most characters end up spending a bit more on skills. The Affliction power is an example of how awesome power construction can be. I'll post up an alternate version of Pathogen built in 3e rules... With toughness saves, they also changed the result chart: Failure by 1-5 is Bruised Failure by 6-10 is Bruised and Dazed Failure by 11-15 is Bruised, Dazed, and Staggered Failure by 16+ is Unconscious So, it's no longer 1-4 Bruise, 5-9 Bruised and Stunned, etc. In other words, they changed it from 1-4 to 1-5 and so on. Most people think that the math is more intuitive and the lack of stun-locking rocks. If we wanted to make the switch, we might as well get used to the new math too.
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Post by frobones on Aug 22, 2010 0:18:22 GMT -8
The way that Agility, Dexterity, and Fighting replace Base Attack Bonus and Defense will take some getting used to. You can also spend PP to increase defense - 1pp per rank of defense, but you must choose to increase either the close or range defense (pg. 50).
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Post by frobones on Aug 22, 2010 0:33:46 GMT -8
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Post by redbstrd on Aug 22, 2010 0:35:11 GMT -8
Flight starts with a base 10 mph, so you multiply its ranks by 10 mph on the Time and Value Progression chart on page 70 of the core book. This confused even me, what do you mean you multiply its ranks by 10mph. I thought you simply took the value listed on the table that corresponded to your ranks in flight. So Flight 2 would be rank 5 (25mph) on the table, Flight 3 is rank 6 (50mph), etc. Sorry, what I meant was that you look at the Time and Value Progression chart on page 70 and find out what value corresponds to your rank. Multiply that number by 10 mph. Rank Value Mph 1 1 10 2 2* 25 3 5 50 4 10 100 5 25 250 6 50 500 *They round up 2 to 2.5...
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Post by redbstrd on Aug 22, 2010 0:39:30 GMT -8
The way that Agility, Dexterity, and Fighting replace Base Attack Bonus and Defense will take some getting used to. You can also spend PP to increase defense - 1pp per rank of defense, but you must choose to increase either the close or range defense (pg. 50). Yeah. I had to do that for the 3e Pathogen because of changes to Growth and how it affects active defenses (Parry and Dodge).
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Post by redbstrd on Aug 22, 2010 0:54:03 GMT -8
Here's an example so you can compare the differences. A few of the powers are slightly different because of changed mechanics...
Pathogen 3e PL 10 (150 pp)
Abilities: Strength 10, Stamina 10, Agility 10, Dexterity 0, Fighting 10, Intellect 0, Awareness 1, Presence 0
Advantages: Benefit: Wealth, Evasion, Fearless, Great Endurance, Uncanny Dodge
Skills: Acrobatics 4 (+14), Athletics 2 (+12), Insight 4 (+5), Intimidation 10 (+11), Perception 8 (+9), Stealth 4 (+12), Vehicles 2 (+2)
Powers: Concealment 3 (Sense - Sight, Smell; Blending, Passive) [2 pp] Growth 2 (+2 STR, +2 STA, +1 Intimidate, -2 Stealth, -1 active defenses) [4 pp] Morph 1 (+20 Deception checks to disguise; Single form) [5 pp] Elongation 2 (Elongation: 30 feet) [2 pp] Power-lifting 4 (+4 STR for lifting) [4 pp] AE: Leaping 2 (30 feet at 8 miles/hour) - and - Movement 1 (Wall-crawling 1) [1 pp] Senses 6 (Accurate and Acute: Smell, Darkvision, Radius: Sight) Snare 10 (DC 20 Dodge; Flaw: Reduced Range (close)) AE: Symbiote Burst: Burst Area (Strength Bonus) Damage 10 (30 feet radius sphere; Extra: Selective) AE: Symbiote Spray: Affliction 10 (1st degree: Fatigued, 2nd degree: Exhausted, 3rd degree: Paralyzed, DC 20 Fort; Affects Insubstantial 2, Subtle 2) AE: Tongue Lash: Affliction 10 (1st degree: Hindered, 2nd degree: Prone, 3rd degree: Incapacitated, DC 20 Fort)
Complications: Identity, Quirk: Adrenaline Junky
Defenses: Dodge 10, Parry 10, Fortitude 10, Toughness 10, Will 6
Power Points: Abilities 74 + Powers 47 + Advantages 5 + Skills 17 (34 ranks) + Defenses 7 = 150
Build notes: He's pretty much the same but a few things are different. He ended up spending a bit more on skills but he got most of his powers cheaper. The real interesting change is on a few of his alternate effects (alternate powers).
With his Symbiote Spray, I was able to pick what happens in each failure interval on the save: Failure by 1-5: Fatigued (Half movement speed) Failure by 6-10: Exhausted (Half movement speed, -2 to checks) Failure by 11+: Paralyzed (Defenseless, immobile, and stunned)
Tongue Lash: Failure by 1-5: Hindered (Half movement speed) Failure by 6-10: Prone (Half movement speed, -5 to close combat defense and attack) Failure by 11+: Incapacitated (Defenseless, stunned, and unaware)
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Post by frobones on Aug 22, 2010 1:14:19 GMT -8
This confused even me, what do you mean you multiply its ranks by 10mph. I thought you simply took the value listed on the table that corresponded to your ranks in flight. So Flight 2 would be rank 5 (25mph) on the table, Flight 3 is rank 6 (50mph), etc. Sorry, what I meant was that you look at the Time and Value Progression chart on page 70 and find out what value corresponds to your rank. Multiply that number by 10 mph. Rank Value Mph 1 1 10 2 2* 25 3 5 50 4 10 100 5 25 250 6 50 500 *They round up 2 to 2.5... You're making that harder than it needs to be. Flight starts out at 10mph. Each additional rank in flight steps you up one on the Time and Value Progression table. It's way more simple that way. Your calculation just happens to be very similar. The hiccup at 2 to 2.5 shows the flaw in your calculation. So Flight 2 steps up from 10mph to 25mph. Flight 3 is the step from 25mph to 50mph. Flight 4 is the step from 50mph to 100mph, etc.
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Post by redbstrd on Aug 22, 2010 9:36:14 GMT -8
Sorry, what I meant was that you look at the Time and Value Progression chart on page 70 and find out what value corresponds to your rank. Multiply that number by 10 mph. Rank Value Mph 1 1 10 2 2* 25 3 5 50 4 10 100 5 25 250 6 50 500 *They round up 2 to 2.5... You're making that harder than it needs to be. Flight starts out at 10mph. Each additional rank in flight steps you up one on the Time and Value Progression table. It's way more simple that way. Your calculation just happens to be very similar. The hiccup at 2 to 2.5 shows the flaw in your calculation. So Flight 2 steps up from 10mph to 25mph. Flight 3 is the step from 25mph to 50mph. Flight 4 is the step from 50mph to 100mph, etc. It's definitely not harder when you start getting into the higher ranks. At rank 12, for instance, you shouldn't have to start at 10 mph and count your way up twelve steps. Just glance at the chart, see that its value is 5,000, and add a zero. The same applies for rank 18. Its value is 500,000, so someone travels at 5,000,000 mph. Having to count the steps out manually seems like an inefficient way of looking up the speed once you get past rank 5 or so.
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Post by frobones on Aug 22, 2010 11:09:44 GMT -8
It's definitely not harder when you start getting into the higher ranks. At rank 12, for instance, you shouldn't have to start at 10 mph and count your way up twelve steps. Just glance at the chart, see that its value is 5,000, and add a zero. The same applies for rank 18. Its value is 500,000, so someone travels at 5,000,000 mph. Having to count the steps out manually seems like an inefficient way of looking up the speed once you get past rank 5 or so. Ok, I see your logic. I guess I didn't want to tell the newbie something different than was in the book.
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Post by narutoanbu on Aug 22, 2010 15:26:41 GMT -8
Thanks guys sorry the 25 was throwing me off. and yeah the book was confusing me. the chart is useful and i use it a lot but i couldn't tell which one was meant for powers. I'm guessing its save DC. thanks again guys that was i think the only hang up for finishing my Freedom City hero
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Post by redbstrd on Aug 22, 2010 15:45:45 GMT -8
Ok, I see your logic. I guess I didn't want to tell the newbie something different than was in the book. The chart has some problems that they need to address because rank 2 has a value of 2. That creates a problem because the progression follows the pattern of 1, 2.5, 5, and then repeats. They don't hold to it consistently. For Burrowing, Flight, Speed, and Swimming, they treat it as 2.5. For Leaping and Space Flight, they treat it as 2. The consequence is inconsistent charts in Ultimate Power (where they give reference charts for each movement power) at rank 2. In the core rulesbook, their inconsistency creates a problem for Swimming, which is supposed to start at 2.5 mph and move up the Value and Progression chart. The chart doesn't have a value at 2.5 since it goes from 1, 2, 5, 10, 25, 50, etc. Swimming goes from 2.5 mph, 5 mph, 10 mph, etc., so they are using the same asterisk (*2 rounds up to 2.5) move that had to use in my chart. It's a mess in 2e.
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Post by redbstrd on Aug 22, 2010 15:58:32 GMT -8
Thanks guys sorry the 25 was throwing me off. and yeah the book was confusing me. the chart is useful and i use it a lot but i couldn't tell which one was meant for powers. I'm guessing its save DC. thanks again guys that was i think the only hang up for finishing my Freedom City hero No problem. Yes, powers that are capped by the Power Level use the Max Save DC Modifier column on page 25 (though trade-offs can be applied to many). Of course, if it's a power that modifies your other stats (such as Protection, which increases Toughness), then you have to check the relevant other column.
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Post by frobones on Aug 22, 2010 16:57:31 GMT -8
Thanks guys sorry the 25 was throwing me off. and yeah the book was confusing me. the chart is useful and i use it a lot but i couldn't tell which one was meant for powers. I'm guessing its save DC. thanks again guys that was i think the only hang up for finishing my Freedom City hero Just post your character on the boards when you're done and describe to me what you are trying to simulate with the powers you come up with. It's real easy to get lost in the mechanics of the game if you haven't read it throughly. So if you have an idea for a power but can't seem to execute it with rules, just let me know and I'll help you out. The beauty of this game is the versatility in the descriptions of your powers. Take the Blast power for instance, it's a really simple power but it can be an infinite multitude of things. It can be laser beams from the eyes, a gun shot, a punch from Mr. Fantastic, a water balloon being thrown, etc. Honestly, you are only limited to your imagination in this game - you can virtually make anything you can think of possible... the trouble is finding out exactly how to make it happen with the rules.
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