Solo Fight Redesign Feedback.

[Joseph Barros]

So overall I think the redesigned Sinruth fight went well. After discussing it at length with Robert I'll limit the scope of their status effect shedding abilities in the future to just action limiting status effects including dominate, helpless, stun, and daze. All other status effects will play out on solo monsters as normal even at phase shifts.

Otherwise I think I achieved most of my design goals. The solo fight wasn't boring, it was more challenging than it would have been as a normal solo, and the fight was over faster than it would have if it was a normal solo. (Solo fights can easily take 7-8 or more rounds usually hacking away at their huge life totals, whereas last night we kept the number of rounds to 5 which is in the range we normally keep of 4-5 rounds)

So feedback is welcome and feel free to post thoughts on solo design anytime in the future as well since it the next solo monster fight that I'll be redesigning is months away.

[Brian Williamson]

I don't really have anything to compare it to, so feel free to take my review with a grain of salt. I really loved the flavor and mechanics of the boss fight, and from what I've heard about a traditional solo, this seems like it was an improvement. As my character doesn't rely on a whole lot of status effects (not too many choices out there for a level 2 rogue--more at higher levels), I didn't see a difference that way.

Also, we kinda kicked his ass!

[narutoanbu]

I honestly didn't like the removing of status affects and I think bloodied should remain available in all forms. not just the last form. Even in wow when the boss was passed a certain effects my execute would activate. Also the adding of powers. that should be done really carefully. also i think it should be a three section HP and not a 33/33/33 and just be a 99 but every 33 change a new phase (if there is more then one). that way we don't have to wait to use encounters and dailies which I found frustrating. and last point i don't think all bosses should have 3 phases. I think for such a small boss one or two would have been more fun. that fight just felt way to dragged out and by the end i was bored.

[Joseph Barros]

Lots of input Brian. Your comments have shown me where some of the disconnect is coming from so I can better explain my vision.

First I should probably better clarify that it isn't all "bosses" that will have new mechanics. Just solos. There are going to be a number of bosses to face in the future, but in all of heroic maybe only one or two are solos. Elites I wouldn't change other than matching up pre MM3 elites to MM3 math, because some of the original ones had a crap ton of hitpoints that really caused things to drag out. Other than that no changes there. This type of encounter will not show up often. 

As to your complaint that Sinruth was a small boss; he was the big boss. The leader of the new red hand of doom. So wizards made him a Solo monster and I in turn used my new boss mechanics. That said I can see how you might feel that way. Sinruth is the whole reason you're there to begin with, but the undead stuff and the cult stuff and the weird energies in the place does come off a lot more ominous and concerning than a doped up hobgoblin chieftain.... aaand you're doing nothing wrong with that line of thinking. Short term he's the big bad, long term he's small potatoes as you have probably figured out if you've read the emissary note yet.  Think of the story like a Joss Whedon TV show; the first season is a bit slow and uneven at times, but it does get better! Next season's big bad is not a solo but also not lame! I promise!

I didn't add any new powers at all. His spiked chain, his boot stomp, spiked armor, the necrotic stones, all that was all wizards stuff. All I added was the phase mechanic which caused the streams and the shedding of status effects.  In general I agree with you about making up new powers; Much care needed and rarely done.

I'm not sure how the WoW execute analogy works. My redesign means your DnD "executes" don't work until 33% rather than 50%. That's still pretty generous in comparison to WoW. And 33% in DnD can go by much faster than than 10% for some WoW bosses. Though really we're treading on very dangerous territory making too many comparisons to WoW or any other MMO for that matter. Despite similarities stemming from the concept of classes and roles, there are some VERY significant differences in how those classes play out and what in game. In short while there are some design concepts that I think MMOs and 4E do share and could still learn from each other, the philosophy towards party building that one employs in MMOs does NOT translate to 4E despite a lot of similarities in vocabulary. I'm going to save that for whole other thread.

Can you clarify dragged out? The fight went 5 rounds. 4-5 rounds is pretty standard for our games. The one or two that were over in 3 rounds were fights that were hard to balance for 3 people and I ended up erroring on the too easy side. If I make it one phase, then that means no changes at all. The phase mechanic IS the mechanic. If I make it one phase, then that means no changes at all. The only changes I added were phase related. That said, what do you think the difference between two and three phases would be seeing as how it didn't take any more rounds to get through than any other fight we've run so far. That said, what do you think the difference between two and three phases would be seeing as how it didn't take any more rounds to get through than any other fight we've run so far. Maybe the reason it felt dragged out was because you felt you had to hold back your big save ends abilities, worried about the phase changes resulting in more at-will use and less fun stuff until the end. I've already conceded that point.

As far as excess damage being wasted, that's more easily dealt with. If it's early in a phase, and no one else has dropped any big bombs, then the likelihood of you wasting damage is quite small so don't hold back! Get that fucker out of the current phase! With only 2 of you capable of dropping big damage bombs against non-undead and there being 3 phases, you could easily come up with a plan in which the non-strikers unload debuff damage phase one, then rigel goes nova phase 2, then you go nova phase 3, or some other plan. It's tactics like that I'd like to see in solo fights rather than the norm for solos which is doggie pile lockdown. In fact, waiting until the end to use all your bursts would be a tactical error and far more wasteful of your talents. Phase one maybe you hold back if it feels easy, but phase two was the high damage phase. THAT's the phase you would want to have at least one person unload to get OUT of that phase. There's lots of MMO fights like that. Phase 3 was still potentially dangerous, but really the hardest phase was 2. And since you know that phase shifts are coming, if you are in a phase that seems really harsh, you should probably unload then to end the phase, rather than wait until phase 3. If there are three strong monsters in front of you, you may rarely choose to open with your big guns, but do you always feel you have to wait until only one is left to use your big guns? It's not that different here. Plus by the end of phase 1 you can get a feel for how many HP is appx. in a phase allowing you to better judge when to use abilities. Though again, at the beginning of a phase think of it like a fresh new monster; probably not going to waste much.

In typing this I have realized something that may have been helpful if I had clarified it earlier. Phase 3 is not necessarily going to be the most challenging phase. Phase 1 usually will be the easiest, but after that it won't be so easy to predict. Imagine the following scenario and the resulting tactical decision making process;

After defeating a single medium-challenge monster that can't be bloodied, you now are facing a badass normal monster that can't be bloodied. No short rest.

• You know that as soon as he dies another one will come out at full HP, the same total as the previous two, but will be bloodied the entire time. No short rest in between.
• The previous monster did some damage to you, but the party still has most of its resources.

• You know the third monster will be the last monster.

• You don't know if the third monster will be tougher or easier than the current monster, but it won't be easier than the first monster.

• You do know that this current monster is really hitting you and/or your party hard. 
• You know that most normal monsters take 3-4 normal hits to kill and only 1-2 big hits to kill. (This is generally true of DnD 4e math.)

Do you: 
A) Go all out and burn out this monster really fast to end him as a threat? You'll take minimum possible damage from the current beast, but accept maximum possible damage from the third and final monster whatever that may be.
B) Everybody blow all their encounters, but designate only one striker in the party to use their daily to save some firepower for the next monster? You potentially take more damage than option A from the current monster if it lives longer, but are less vulnerable to the third and final monster.
C) Some other creative plan?
D) Only use at-wills to fight the monster currently beating you down saving the entire party's dailies for the third and final monster keeping in mind the last bullet point listed above? You take maximum damage from the current monster, assuming that every ounce of firepower available will be required for phase 3.

Now granted I realize the status effects mechanic was OP. But even conceding that I get the feeling that everybody, if you were to replace the word 'monster' with 'phase' in the above scenario, is reacting as if option D is the only viable option when in A,B, or C are probably better choices. Some of the things complained about in the solo encounter technically happen all the time in regular encounters; blow a single target daily or encounter on one monster. Don't get to use it on any of the others, don't get to transfer the damage or effects to the next monster. Nobody is arguing that situation is unfair. But change the word monster to phase and now it becomes unfair? In retrospect that may be my fault for not better explaining my vision for solo monsters. Less brute force, more discussion ahead of time. Fortunately, I am not planning any further mechanic rehauls in the future that you haven't already seen.

[NarutoanbuTLTSI]

Ok, to answer your multi monster scenario. If a monster has 40 hit points left and I crit at 50. Then those 10 extra damage points arn't necessarily wasted because that monster is gone and out of the way in this multi monster fight. in this case though. we are still fighting the same solo monster. Those 10 points are now wasted because this same monster didn't die, and just basically re-healed himself. that will be an annoyance with me. it was an annoyance in wow. thats why I stayed away from those raids and bosses as best I could. Now if you keep him at say in (Useing sinruths original states) sinurths 198 hit points his 1/3 is 92. so every 92 he does a new phase but the damage from the last attack still gets him. so say he is in phase two and he is stomping us I wont feel the need to save my high powered attacks because we have gotten a few hits in on him and I don't want to waste damage.



also there is a difference between solo monsters and multi monsters. Multi monsters get more then one attack. so yeah it is sometimes viable to get one out of the way if say he is going after the healer or straying from the pack or a controller. that in essence alleviates the overall damage that the group is suffering from without wasting damage due to the creature actually dieing and no longer being able to attack or flank.



to lazy to sign in

[Joseph Barros]

First I want to reiterate that I've converted all monsters to MM 3 math so Sinruth's HP grand total was a lot less than 198. His damage was increased accordingly as well. A 50 point hit at the beginning of the phase would have resulted in less than 10 excess damage.

But what I take from your reply is it annoys you from purely an aesthetic point of view. Mechanically and strategically your example of taking out the annoying monster actually supports my argument only instead of taking out the annoying monster you take out the annoying phase. Each phase needs to be defeated. The faster you defeat any one phase, the sooner the fight ends as a result of him dying. If the phase is a high damage phase, ending it alleviates the overall damage that the group is suffering. When you "waste" damage on a non solo his buddies can also still attack or flank. No difference there in your example. In your example you take out the big guns first and then mop up the ones that don't hurt as much. With the phases you take out his big guns, his badass phase first, then mop up the one or ones that don't hurt as much. If fear of losing 10 pts in a non solo fight doesn't worry you then there's no reason it should in a solo fight. In fact you are MORE likely to waste points in a non solo fight due to there often being more than three monsters and therefore more than three opportunities to overshoot. Minions in particular. Please keep in mind the total HP you must hack through to end the fight is roughly the same in either fight. In one example after you beat a couple monsters there is still more there to attack you. In the other example after you beat a phase or two there is still one there to attack you. Only the aesthetics are significantly different in regards to resource management and overall encounter length.

And if he is stomping you is it really better to keep letting him stomp you rather than knock his teeth in to get him to start stagger back and lose some "mojo"? You are just as likely to end up "wasting" damage in the last phase as you are in the first or second phase and by waiting you just allowed the monster to use his worst abilities for as long as possible. In all fights solo or not you run the risk of excess damage. That is not a reason to hold back in and of itself. If another player just landed a massive crit then ok wait a turn, otherwise why? No matter when you strike you are still going to hit with the same amount of damage over the course of the fight. You decide whether the bulk of that damage is applied early, middle, or late. Your choice won't likely effect the length of the fight because 40 of 50 damage is the same in any phase. So that said, wouldn't it make more sense to apply that 40 during the phase that is more deadly and is thereby sucking more party resources i.e. healing surges? Maybe the monster didn't die but that 40 needs to be done some time in the fight to get to zero so my argument is to apply that damage at the best opportunity and not just arbitrarily at the last opportunity. By not ending the hard hitting phase you are extending the suffering of the party because the less damaging phases don't have as much damage to alleviate.

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